Episode V: The Logic of Its Making

Of Flightless Doves Podcast

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Episode V: The Logic of Its Making

A conversation on poetic form with the poet Owen Andrews

Ethan Koss-Smith

Oct 17, 2025

In this episode, began In Medias Res, Owen Andrews and I talk about form, John Ashbery, what a poem may look and sound like, the relationship between the American state and poets, Lolita, Emily Dickinson, the lack of emotional investment regarding “climate change poetry”, Jorie Graham, language in pursuit of cause, poetry of war, starving in a garret, permissions, lines, and much more.

Guest Bio:

Owen Andrews lives in Cambridge, Massachusetts. A lifelong poet, he has studied with Robert Fitzgerald, Jane Shore, Cornelius Eady, and John Canaday. His work has appeared in Persephone, Epiphany, JuJuBes, and FathomBooks’ SHARKPACK #7. Poet friends and mentors of his own generation include Michael Ruby, Joseph Spece, Cynthia Zarin, and Jeffrey Gustavson. He has taught college composition and introductory writing and leads a long-running Zoom workshop for a group of established poets. He worked as an administrator and professional writer for many years, most recently at Harvard University.

Andrews was most recently published in Fathombooks’ 2025 SHARKPACK Poetry Review that may be purchased via this hyperlink.

(P.S. you may check out the digital edition of SHARKPACK #6 (2020) in which my poem/song “Tommy,” is published digitally here as an audio file and in print, which can be accessed here.)

Correction: I made an error when speaking about Ghazals, where I said a ghazal is composed of 7-15 lines that are couplets, when I meant to say 7-15 stanzas that are couplets.

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